Red Eclipse
Replies: 6 comments 15 replies
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Don't think the problem lays in visuals or anything like that. To most of the gamers the important thing in a game is for the game to feel smooth, especially in a quake-style one. Actually, what the game lacks the most is a competitive aspect, which it doesn't have at all. People who play games a lot (and this is what we need if we want a somewhat stable player-base), like to stat, level, mmr farm. You don't even need to add any ranked mode or stuff like that. Just add simple statistics and levels to keep track of. Something like accuracy, headshot accuracy, average dmg/10 min and such. Adding some additional rewards would be good too. |
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It isn't possible to track statistics because the GDPR makes it too costly to comply with. We used to have it until GDPR came into effect. |
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I am working on a very complex lobby concept which includes a lightweight GDPR rewarding mechanism that can bring Motivation to play more online and stay for a longer time in the lobby. But that one is a massive next evolution for RE and will take a lot of time. That's nothing can be easy added on the end of working for the 2.1 release. That's probably a thing for 2.2 cause it's a very massive change if it's get ever accepted and wanted in the game. |
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I think the risk of the game being branded as AI slop might make this move counterproductive. Right now if someone calls the art in the game AI generated, they're wrong, but if the art in the game actually is AI generated, there isn't really a defense. Additionally, I think painting people opposed to AI tools being used in games as a "vocal minority" might not be entirely accurate. While most people don't have a seething hatred of AI, they do consider AI generated images/music to be an indicator that something is low quality and not worth their time. In my personal aesthetic opinion, AI generated stuff is kind of repulsive, so I'd definitely prefer the game avoid that path personally. Basically I think AI promotional material would harm the game's reputation rather than help it, and damage its aesthetic character. Just my 2 cents |
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Re: "When the only complaint about a game is that there's no-one playing it, you come to a realisation that there's nothing wrong with the game itself, it's something else." I think you might be beating yourself up over this too much. Success isn't solely based on the quality of the product, it's also based on dumb luck — especially a game like a multiplayer shooter that relies on the network effect (other players) for fun gameplay. It might just need more attempts at promotion, eventually one might blow up on tiktok or something, like the other person said. |
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I think the definition AI slop is far from fitting by a already free game... for me this definition counts when you the gamer bought a game expecting artists to perform 'real" work but getting mostly AI Assisted generated content and not getting informed about that before. |
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I agree to a certain extent. My main point was that people will look at an AI assisted trailer and assume that the game will be an unfun vibe-coded mess. I don't think Red Eclipse would be "slop" if the proposed AI use is implemented, but it could give that impression. |
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Yeah I don't have any intention of replacing human work on in game assets, it's not an area which is really lacking. |
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(if no apocalyptic event happens against AI) in one year, AI tool will be able to fully replace the human in creation of the project(game) that not include any new ideas(was not implemented before). Consider to advice to those people to do not use autocomplete suggestions and error linters in coding, and clone tool in "photoshop", since this is not their own thinks how to complete the line of the code or texture(hope nobody think the complete of line of code is the equal loading as continue to draw the texture in editor). They can use notepad and paint. If you were not pay and spent about 20 years for the project, think about to continue to do what you think is good for the project. I personally have several ideas that i did not see on the market of FPS games implemented(i did not discover absolutely all FPS games, only several of them), but i can not implement them at the moment, because of circumstances. |
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This isn't about that though. I'm one person carrying the load of twenty already. If I'm left to the marketing and stuff I can only dedicate a tiny fraction of my time to it which means it's something I can't do all the time - which is what is really needed. In the absence of help this is all I can come up with. |
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AI for making a trailerI worry this might damage the game's reputation, as the reception to AI work especially in the gaming space, and even more internet in general is very hostile (which I do and don't agree with in parts, of course witchhunts are bad). People may see an "AI Used" disclaimer and just click "Ignore". I really like this game since discovering it and would really hate for this to cause it to fall. I think it would be good if AI was kept to just the trailer in the case it is used, and not in the game itself, preserving the game's identity while allowing a trailer to be made faster. IDK exactly how the GPL 3.0 and AI work either, so maybe that would cause issues...? I do understand how it would be used as a tool and not to replace an artist entirely. I think I would be okay (although not perfectly fine) with AI being used in a manner perhaps to communicate concepts or rough draft initial visuals that could be touched up and re-traced over to look more human/fit the game's art style afterwards, but still cutting down on the initial concerting and sketch time. I think this would be ideally if we must involve AI what I would be comfortable with seeing. AI MusicAs someone who listens to music a lot, I think that AI music sounds generally kind of offputting. It would be okay for the trailer if mixed by a real person (so it sounds better), but I don't think putting it in the game would be ideal. On the topic of a trailer itselfI think a trailer would be a good idea, maybe a way to show new players what the game has to offer. As for what I would want from a trailer, I would prefer more detail or nuance and demonstration of the gameplay itself rather than just flashy visuals (though, you do need good visuals in a trailer). The problem I have with a lot of AAA trailers I see is it's just buzzwords thrown around inbetween snippets of gameplay and blinding visuals, half the time you can barely tell what the game is about. Avoiding this might be a good idea regardless of the AI discussion. My opinion (sort of irrelevant, but i'm going to put it out there if anyone wants to read it)Personally, I would find it disheartening if AI was used to generate art or music for Red Eclipse. In my opinion (as a small artist), generative AI is unethical, because they did not ask for permission before taking many artist's work and using if or training data. If we used a model that can prove all of it's data was sourced ethically from consenting artists, I would drop a significant portion of my opposition. I am not opposed to the technology itself, more the way it is currently implemented. Promotion in generalI think a trailer would be a good idea for promotion at some point. Some promotion could be done by people just spreading the word if we can somehow get them to. I've been doing that, at least to my friends that I think would like it. No microtransactions and being free/opensource (+linux native, no kernel bullshit) could possibly be large selling points for the game if promoted correctly, especially the free + no microtransactions part, which makes it very easy to convince people to at least give it a try. There are many people I've talked to who want a F2P PVP game with no microtransactions or slop, and this could be that game if it can be pulled off. We could also potentially post gameplay videos, or something of that nature to various platforms, to get the game spread around a bit more. Compilations, funny moment, ytp mlg nostalgia, whatever. |
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I thought the same before our experiment with AI Assisted generated music happened. Did you already listen to the results? I am not a musician but the results speaks for itself. If I wouldn't know being AI Assisted generated I wouldn't know it and still believe that's made by a human as good that result are already. |
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Exactly the kind of input I was looking for. Thank you for your considered response. The community is attempting to start on some of the things you've mentioned so do be sure to pop in there. |
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Cool! Thanks. I will attempt to pop in from time to time to give input so to speak. |
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I have seen this play out in a few areas. I am personally in support and think you made a great case for it. I have also been on the receiving end of this criticism when I ran a survey for a major open source piece of software and suggested using AI to analyse it. Even with local-only AI, there was still a single veto which meant I had to do the analysis completely by myself. Through that debate, I realised that people really think that you will use AI totally unsupervised. This is false - and everyone who plays and loves RE knows you have a strong authorial vision, and would be very considered in what you do. I think the 'Human Editor' point may have gone over people's heads. I understand this proposal is currently just looking at a new trailer. I would urge you to consider that in the heights of RE's popularity (say, 1.3 to 1.6 era), it had a pretty effective trailer, which I think is much better than the one which replaced it. Watching it back, it is a little less good than I remember, but it succeeds at showing the game at how it actually was. The best part was the bit of slapstick at the end, which I remember to this day (impressive as it's been 12 years). All of this is conceptual, about making a good 'story' in the trailer, and nothing to do with the trailer's visual appeal. I have noticed that many indie games apply ReShade-like effects to their trailers, which I reckon is the wrong way about it - and most successfully-marketed gameplay-centric games have more 'naturalistic' trailers in that sense (e.g. Wilmot's Warehouse). So when it comes to visuals, I'd say 'don't overegg it'. This is more of a conceptual point than about AI per se - and regardless of the method, the level of effects should be very limited in producing this trailer. On the music, I think you made a good case for it in that you are building on existing works. I would honestly say this isn't a serious weakness in RE and would put this towards the bottom of the list, but I think it's the least controversial as it's about making variations based on a few motifs that RE already has, that fit into its existing music. For graphic assets, I think there is a major reputational risk for things looking 'obviously AI'. It is incumbent on you to demonstrate that you do not use them in that way. Finally, to address the reputational concerns - I think you have to go out of your way to use an ethical source of data where each artist has provided permission, or had liberal licensing terms that would permit it anyway. It would be mandatory for a project of this nature, and I would say you should not proceed without that dataset being sourced properly. |
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Interesting anecdote, thanks for sharing that when you didn't need to. I do indeed have a very specific vision of the game and wouldn't compromise that for some "free work". AI is only as sloppy as the human wielding it. I'm of the opinion that it's in everyone's best interests to learn how to be the one not creating slop now, rather than later when it's too late and you're redundant because of it. I'm honestly on the fence about the copyrighted content in data sets. On one hand, I don't see it any different to how a human is trained, my outputs are a result of the inputs I've been trained on, and that includes the copyrighted content of others and you constantly see me evaluating game systems etc. The flipside being the losses to artists, but the reality is that programming will be fully automated and there won't be as much oversight needed there as it would be with artistic representations. Creation is always going to need the creatives, regardless of if they use AI or not. A lot of this is conflated with the big tech companies controlling us all, and their blatant use of slop in paid products. Thing is, you don't pay anything for Red Eclipse. Most people don't even contribute. The problem is, unless they do, I only have a finite amount of brain power I can dedicate to the project, and I've been riding that limit for years (people keep saying burnout, but it's not that, I'm maxed out). As a result, things like this which need to be done, get neglected, and then everyone looks at me and wonders why nobody is online. Saying "Oh go to #matchmaking and ping the role" doesn't solve the issue. 99% of people don't do it. They will never do it. They simply came to express their astonishment a good game had no players, and then they move on to the next game that has players. It's a lost opportunity every time. |
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UPDATE: Discourse has progressed to a team attempting to tackle the marketing issues.
See: https://discord.com/channels/224638962050793474/1401026132781826089
Hey everyone, Quin here.
I want to float an idea by the community, one that tackles our oldest and most stubborn problem: the art bottleneck.
We have a culture where programmers are expected to volunteer thousands of hours because they love the project and believe in FOSS [1, 2]. But finding skilled artists willing to do the same is a constant struggle [3, 4]. And frankly, you can't blame them. Art is their livelihood, and they can't afford to sink hundreds of hours into a volunteer project when they have bills to pay [5, 6]. If you want them to create something they aren't personally invested in, you need a budget [7], and that's the one thing we've never had an abundant supply of.
I've been here over and over again, even when you do manage to get an artist, you probably won't get the result you want, because art is usually provided as "take it or leave it". Anyone volunteering their time often takes months to complete a single task, if at all. Then, at any time they disagree with you - about anything - they walk away in a huff of vitriol and tell you to stop using their content [8, 9, 10] (and I recommend actually reading these citations).
This has always held us back, especially when it comes to promotion. A great game can get completely overlooked if it doesn't have polished, exciting marketing materials to grab people's attention [3, 11]. So, here's the idea: a new music video trailer for Red Eclipse. But we'd create it using a hybrid workflow, blending AI assistance with a human touch.
Here’s how it could work:
The Music: We start with our own Red Eclipse theme song. We use an AI music tool to generate different arrangements, remixes, or variations based on our theme [12, 13]. This gives us a high-quality, dynamic soundtrack that's still fundamentally ours, without needing to hire a professional music studio. I have already done some initial experiments, with the best result being "We Are The Glitch": https://soundcloud.com/quintonreeves/sets/red-eclipse-an-ai-assisted-album
The Visuals: This is where the hybrid approach comes in. Instead of just using in-game footage, we could use AI to generate conceptual visuals that are impossible to capture otherwise, things like stylized motion graphics, abstract representations of our parkour system, or epic, painterly scenes that evoke the feeling of a map rather than just showing it [13, 15]. This isn't about creating in-game assets, but about generating unique raw material for the trailer.
The Human Editor: This is the most important part. One of us would act as the director and editor. They would take the AI-generated music and conceptual visuals, mix them with awesome gameplay footage captured by the community, and then edit it all together into a cohesive, kick-ass trailer [12, 16]. The AI is a tool, a co-pilot, not the artist [15, 18]. The final creative vision and all the important decisions would come from a person.
Now, I know this is a sensitive topic. The conversation around AI in game development is incredibly heated, especially in an open source context, and we need to talk about that, too. There's a vocal minority out there that is fighting against any use of AI, for any reason [18, 19]. We've all seen it: developers get dogpiled, arguments start, and accusations fly the moment the letters 'AI' are mentioned [6, 20, 21]. Personally, I can't work in such an environment. I've spent 20 years on the game with no financial compensation, and I am often told how to do my job and threatened whenever someone doesn't agree with me.
This has gotten so intense that some developers are being falsely accused of using AI even when they haven't, forced to prove their art is human-made [22, 23, 24]. It's becoming a witch hunt that can harm the very creators people are trying to protect.
That's why I want to be crystal clear about this idea. This isn't about replacing artists. It's about using a tool to fill a role that is currently completely empty for us. For our marketing, the choice isn't between hiring an artist and using AI, it's between being made this way, or not at all - unless an amateur comes in and volunteers something we have little to no say in or creative control over.
So, what do you think? Can we have a nuanced discussion about using AI as an assistive tool for a specific goal like this, even with all the noise out there? Is this a pragmatic path forward? Or am I just going to continue to be lambasted for trying to push the project past this hill we've never managed to climb over?
Let's actually discuss this without the bias for once.
-Quinton "Quin" Reeves,
Lead Developer, Red Eclipse
Citations
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