Diversity of tagging for ETCS signalling

[LaVoiedelaSagesse]

Hi,
I observe there is further tagging scheme for a single signal etcs. For exemple the ETCS block marker can be tagged:

railway:signal:train_protection	DE-ESO:ne14
railway:signal:train_protection	NL:227b
railway:signal:train_protection	BE:PRA

I think that in the objective to harmonize the global tagging scheme and simplify the signalling tagging (that is already complicated), it is important to get an only way to tag the ETCS component regardless of he country.

My proposition:

• railway=signal
• railway:signal:position=*
• railway:signal:direction=*
• railway:signal:train_protection:form=sign
• railway:signal:train_protection:type=block_marker
• railway:signal:train_protection=something easy and logic

[hiddewie]

EU:block_marker maybe? Or is there a better official name. https://www.era.europa.eu/system/files/2023-01/sos2_index038_-_06e068_v20.pdf and https://www.era.europa.eu/system/files/2022-11/Appendix%20A%20to%20TSI%20OPE%20%28Updated_%2009_04_2019%29.pdf. Stop marker or location marker?

The NL ETCS ignals can specify the shape of the sign (triangle or arrow).

I am fine with adding support for general EU signals tagging by the way, good idea. For signals shared between countries.

Does CTCS (based on ETCS) use the same signals? Should there be a EU prefix or no prefix?

[LaVoiedelaSagesse]

Your proposition sounds good.

If the NL ETCS get two shapes (as belgium and France), it's in reality the [TVM](Transmission voie-machine) ones (triangles) mixed with the ETCS ones (arrow). Both have the exact same function, but we can keep the shape tag as the triangles ones will apparently not be replaced by arrows.

As far as I know, there is not other ETCS signs, because all the informations appear directly in the train cab thanks to eurobalises and GSM-R.

For CTCS, I don't know and didn't find sources about it. It is true that CTCS is a fork from ETCS, but the fork was operated at the beginning of Chinese highspeed because of the slowness of European conception (during 2000's). There were a lot of changes since then.

[TheSikal]

Hello,
This is an interesting discussion !

railway:signal:train_protection=FR:REP_ETCS is also redundant to ETCS Stop Marker.

For BE:PRA there is no arrow-shaped stop marker yet.

There are two types of ETCS Marker Boards :

• ETCS Stop Marker
  
  I suggest the tag railway:signal:train_protection=EU:ETCS-SM

It is used to "unambiguously identify an EOA which protects one or a group of safety-critical points such as a switch, a conflicting route as entrance of a station, junctions, etc. where the driver requires supplementary information to identify the exact stopping location in addition to the display on the DMI (for instance where a release speed is provided)"

If an MA is not available, the train driver needs a signaller authorisation to override it.

• ETCS Location Marker
  
  I suggest the tag railway:signal:train_protection=EU:ETCS-LM

It is used to identify other points of the track the driver can overpass when an MA is not available.

@LaVoiedelaSagesse As far as I know, there is not other ETCS signs

Specifically for ETCS, there is also ETCS Track Conditions Marker Boards (pantograph marker boards and neutral section marker boards) and ETCS Level Transition Board.

At the scale of ERTMS, there are also GSM-R marker boards.

My sources are Harmonised ERTMS Marker Boards v1.04 and ETCS marker board definition v2

[LaVoiedelaSagesse]

Sorry, but I'm not a native english-speaker. Could you develop the achronyms you used ?

[TheSikal]

I copied and pasted the explanations from the documents without considering that not everyone is familiar with the acronyms used. All my apologies !

DMI = Driver Machine Interface | The screen that allows the driver to interact with the board systems.
EOA = End of Authority | This is the point at which the ETCS allows the train to move.
MA = Movement Authority | Authorisation of a movement defined by a maximum speed and an EOA.

[hiddewie]

Very nice. Then we can also specify the tag railway:signal:train_protection:shape with values arrow or triangle which are used in a few countries, to specify the shape of the arrow/triangle on the marker sign.

[LaVoiedelaSagesse]

According to your documents, there is more signs that I knew. Here are my tags proposals:

level transition point : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:LT

lower the pantograph : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:lower_pantograph

keep the pantograph down : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:keep_pantograph_down

raise the pantograph : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:raise_pantograph

switch off the main power switch : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:power_off

keep switched off the main power switch : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:keep_power_off

switch on the main power : railway:signal:train_protection=EU:power_on

What do you think about them ? I tried to make some key easily understandable, logic and short as possible.

Obviously there is some expert people in railway signs on openrailwaymap-github, so when there will be a consensus on this discussion, I'll expose my proposal on the international OSM forum.

[hiddewie]

I think for the pantograph/power EU signs, it would be nice to follow the guidelines used in other countries already. See e.g. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_Germany/El_Signals (Germany), https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_France#Electrified_Railway_Lines (France), https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_Netherlands#Electrification_(tractie) (Netherlands), https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_Luxembourg (Luxembourg) and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Pl:OpenRailwayMap/Tagging_in_Poland/Pointers#Wska%C5%BAniki_na_liniach_zelektryfikowanych (Poland)

The tags:

• railway:signal:electricity:type=power_off_advance
• railway:signal:electricity:type=power_off
• railway:signal:electricity:type=power_on
• railway:signal:electricity:type=pantograph_down_advance
• railway:signal:electricity:type=pantograph_down
• railway:signal:electricity:type=pantograph_up
• railway:signal:electricity:type=end_of_catenary
• railway:signal:electricity:type=power_off_shortly

are already used in multiple countries, even when the railway:signal:electricity value currently differs per country.

So I would propose:

• railway:signal:electricity=EU:power_off_advance with railway:signal:electricity:type=power_off_advance
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:power_off with railway:signal:electricity:type=power_off
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:power_on with railway:signal:electricity:type=power_on
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:pantograph_down_advance with railway:signal:electricity:type=pantograph_down_advance
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:pantograph_down with railway:signal:electricity:type=pantograph_down
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:pantograph_up with railway:signal:electricity:type=pantograph_up
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:end_of_catenary with railway:signal:electricity:type=end_of_catenary
• railway:signal:electricity=EU:power_off_shortly with railway:signal:electricity:type=power_off_shortly

[LaVoiedelaSagesse]

It's much better than my initial proposal ! I see that you know how are the tagging schemes (when I don't and didn't think to check it before making my proposal 🙃).